Roadmap

deniz · September 2012

Hello dear Gideros community,

There have been discussions of how to manage the roadmap. It took us some time and we have decided how this will work from now on.

We will have three time frames.

• Next Release (1-3 months)
• Near Future (3-6 months)
• Long Term (6+ months)

And what do these mean?

Next Release:

It means the features in this release are certain. They are definitely will be completed in the following three months. It may contain more than one release. You can expect the features in the 1-3 month frame will be completed for sure.

Near Future:

It means, the features in this list have the highest probability of coming to life between 3-6 months period. Today, we plan to make them happen in the near future. However, they are not %100 certain yet. Not until, the features in the list are moved to “next release”. Near future, includes our plans but there are no promises.

Long Term:

Anything we plan to do, but has to wait for the time being, are listed here. For example HTML5 support, yes we want to do this, but we can not guarantee the time. This is included, to just to share our vision, our views. And it may change.

The reason we are sharing our future plans is to share what we think is important. In the mean time, we are listening user comments here in the forum or emails. If we are convinced a feature adds value to Gideros, we will add it to the road map. Whenever a feature request is made, we get together and discuss it. If you think a feature is important, go on and tell us. It is totally cool. Things we consider:

• Necessity(Does it add value),
• Urgency(Is it a show stopper or is it a nice to have)
• Time/resource required to do it
• Scope (Is it game related)
• Impacts on Quality (It may be important but may compromise the stability)

We discuss these issues and then decide which features will be included. I know some of you expect strict dates, but it is not going to happen. This is what we can offer right now.

---

Next Release:

• Facebook Integration
• In-app billing
• Asynchronous texture loading
• Encryption of Compiled Lua files

Near Future:

• Export from command line(maybe in next release)
• Render-to-texture
• Clipping
• Improvement of sound API
• Desktop applications

Long Term:

• Windows Phone 8 support
• HTML5 support
• New IDE
• OpenGL ES 2.0 / Shaders (added by @atilim)

Cheers

ar2rsawseen · September 2012

Great to hear that.
One question, is Long Term category is only for big visionary things or some simple features as Shape antialising, etc could be put there. Just to show, that you have noticed the request and will implement it someday. So for example same features (squeak, squeak) won't be requested multiple times.

deniz · September 2012

Yes, some small features will be implemented with each release. Long term is like visionary. We did not want to list many small items there.

Shape anti-aliasing on the other hand is not that simple. It deserves to be put on long term list.

Scouser · September 2012

I notice that there are no plans to add Isometric & Hexagon support into TileMap (although they were once on the old roadmap but disappeared).

These features are something I think you should consider as it would be very difficult to create decent strategy games without them. 2D strategy games are a popular genre which would also help to get Gideros Studio across to a wider audience, both players and developers.

Just my $0.02

phongtt · September 2012

Hi Deniz,

Thanks for the info

I hope most of the features are usable across platforms (i.e. Facebook integration will work out of the box for iOS, Android, and future platforms? etc.)

There have been a quite long argument about this matter, but after all at least I agree with the point that (true) cross-platform is one of the big advantages of Gideros, and is one of the reasons it was born, right?

deniz · September 2012

@scouser

Isometric & Hexagon support into TileMap : Isometric support into the tile map is planned but now it is in long term list. It has a good probability, after this release, it may move up to next "near future" categoty. But not Hexagon.

@phongtt

Yes, of course.

atilim · September 2012

@phongtt Previously, android plugin system is not very capable of. But from now on, we'll implement all of these features for both platforms.

Chang · September 2012

The next release seems great.

I would like to suggest Amazon in-app purchasing feature. This will complete in-app billing system for all major app stores.

Another reason is that publishing paid or in-app billing apps on Google Play is not available for some countries (including mine =(( ), so Amazon seems to be a better monetization platform.

ar2rsawseen · September 2012

@deniz thanks for response. That was exactly the reason for asking, as many features are could be put on the Long Term.

@chang if source code for Android plugin will be provided, I think it would be easy to port Amazon in-app based on GooglePlay in-app example

dasowl · September 2012

And what about OpenGL ES 2.0 and shaders (and other low level functionality like vertices arrays etc)? I can't see them even on long term list

ar2rsawseen · September 2012

@dasowl that's because Gideros uses OpenGL ES 1.1 and moving to version 2.0 would mean dropping of older devices (especially android ones), which I think is not an option for now.

Actually I think this is the main reason Render to texture and antialising are not supported yet. These options are supported in version 2.0 but are limited or not provided in 1.1

moopf · September 2012

Thank you for posting this although I'm not sure the time frames mean much as it appears that everything is just as fluid as it was before, apart from the limited next release feature set (which I'm surprised will take up to 3 months to release).

All you're actually doing is confirming the reduced roadmap you already had, as everything else is subject to no guarantees. So I don't really see how this is any different?

I know Gideros is a small team but the other thing that comes out of this roadmap is that we can expect new features to appear pretty slowly. I'm concerned that Gideros will get left behind by competitors (both those already maturing and the new kids on the block) with that kind of development pace.

If this roadmap is indicative of the honest capacity Gideros believe they have to push new features out then in 12 months time I fear it will be dead in the water, I'm sorry to say (and I really am sorry to say that).

Honestly, despite what some here believe my attitude to be, to Attilim, Deniz and Gorkem, I wish you and the system all the best and I hope things work out for you, but this kind of progress isn't close to what I need to be able to rely upon the system to meet my needs going forwards unfortunately. And, as I've said on other threads, that's absolutely my problem for having an expectation that couldn't be met and I apologise if I ever came over as terse or obnoxious whilst explaining those expectations.

atilim · September 2012

@ar2rsawseen Yes, I've implemented in-app billing as a plugin (currently, I'm running tests and updating the reference manual). But after a quick look at amazon in-app purchases, I can say they are really different from each other.

@moopf I hope that you'll be happy with your choice.

talis · September 2012

Thanks for informing us, for my side i am newly entering to game programming and i have so much to experience. I am kinda obsessed with security so happy to hear lua encryption in the next release hope that "Asset Encryption" will be added to somewhere in the roadmap also

paul_k_clark · September 2012

Thanks for the information. Good to see plugins will be both Android and Apple.

As mentioned earlier will the source of the plugins be released. This would allow the community to extend the functionality of provide new functionality from what they have learned from the examples

Scouser · September 2012

@Deniz: Thanks for the Tilemap info. I was more interested in isometric anyway.

techdojo · September 2012

@dasowl that's because Gideros uses OpenGL ES 1.1 and moving to version 2.0 would mean dropping of older devices (especially android ones), which I think is not an option for now.

Actually I think this is the main reason Render to texture and antialising are not supported yet. These options are supported in version 2.0 but are limited or not provided in 1.1

For my $0.02 I think OpenGL ES 2.0 support is very important to help the engine compete with the current crop of apps. Potentially Gideros could include support for both with some kind of option to not allow certain functionality on older hardware.

Ansca dropped support for Android 2.2 and ArmV6 chips (many) months ago.

If you want to be able to write games that visually compete with the rest of the app store, sooner or later your going to have to stop dragging outdated hardware around, surely the rate of Android activations suggests that people are upgrading older hardware and the number of non-compatible OpenGL ES 2.0 devices actually in use by paying customers is getting smaller and smaller.

ar2rsawseen · September 2012

@techdojo still I think that Ansca did it too soon. I've read a lot of reasons for moving away from ansca, and this one was usually one of them.

Is it ok to drop armv6 support now? I don't think so.
If you look at statistics:
http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html

2.2 is still 14% of android market.

Don't know about IOS statistics.

But yes, it would be great if some features would simply not work on older devices, but still be able to run the app, without these features. Maybe some things can be provided through openglES extensions

cvieira · September 2012

Hi @atilim, there is already a mini howto or examples of using android plugins in Java? I think the lack of this information may retract developers, since this is how we can extend the game features (integration of ads, gaming platforms, etc...)!

@phongtt Previously, android plugin system is not very capable of. But from now on, we'll implement all of these features for both platforms.

ar2rsawseen · September 2012

@cvieira
You can check this tutorial:
http://appcodingeasy.com/Gideros-Mobile/Creating-plugins-for-Android-in-Gideros

And/or use this one as example:
http://appcodingeasy.com/Gideros-Mobile/Flurry-plugin-for-Android

cvieira · September 2012

Hi @ar2rsawseen, this is what i've been searching for

Many Thanks!

@cvieira
You can check this tutorial:
http://appcodingeasy.com/Gideros-Mobile/Creating-plugins-for-Android-in-Gideros

And/or use this one as example:
http://appcodingeasy.com/Gideros-Mobile/Flurry-plugin-for-Android

techdojo · September 2012

@techdojo still I think that Ansca did it too soon. I've read a lot of reasons for moving away from ansca, and this one was usually one of them.

Is it ok to drop armv6 support now? I don't think so.
If you look at statistics:
http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html

2.2 is still 14% of android market.

Don't know about IOS statistics.

But yes, it would be great if some features would simply not work on older devices, but still be able to run the app, without these features. Maybe some things can be provided through openglES extensions

I agree - it was also one of the reasons I moved as well. However supporting OLDER hardware shouldn't be the only excuse for NOT supporting new features.

There is already the option within the exported projects to drop ArmV6 support to decrease the install size so I can't see any reason why certain functionality (where appropriate) shouldn't be labelled as Arm7 only.

That said - a friend of mine has released a very successful screen saver on Android that uses a lot of shaders to generate and update a really nice particle system (I think the code requires OpenGL ES2.0 - but I'm not sure). However it runs perfectly fine and really smooth (if you drop the frame rate a little) on my ZTE-Blade (Orange San-Francisco) - which is an ArmV6 device which Ansca dropped support for, so some level of shader support is possible.

dasowl · September 2012

@dasowl that's because Gideros uses OpenGL ES 1.1 and moving to version 2.0 would mean dropping of older devices (especially android ones), which I think is not an option for now.

Yes, I know that Gideros uses 1 version, but I hardly agree with following

However supporting OLDER hardware shouldn't be the only excuse for NOT supporting new features.

I really like Gideros, but atm I must learn other frameworks\tools with support of modern features (not NEW but just MODERN) only because Gideros do not support them. And I hoped that features was on the roadmap, but as I can see - they are not, at least in possible future.

Of course, only devs knows what is possible and what is not in their libs.
But as example - now I'm playing with libgdx (open source java framework for android and desktops) and there I have full control what features and what hardware I target to. Need OpenGL ES 2.0? No problems - just include corresponding libs and sdk. Need support for older devices? No problems also.

And in my opinion - supporting for OpenGL 1.0 is mostly major for Android devices (and only for small part of them). For iOS devices and Win\Mac desktops it is safe to use 2.0 And iOS is always the first target for any commercial mobile game\app.

One can still make great games even without modern shaders effects and opengl low level features. But it's not an option for professional long term mobile development. And I'm really sorry for that, coz as I said - a loved Gideros at first and second looks, and I almost finished my own lib with scenes\actors\animations etc. on top of Gideros, but now I forced to look forward for something with opengl 2.0 support, coz its important for 2\3 of my current projects

atilim · September 2012

@dasowl @techdojo I agree. We're putting OpenGL ES 2.0/Shader support to the long term list.

@dasowl, can you tell me a bit more about why do you need OpenGL ES 2.0? Because although shader support is important for 3d, it's not very commonly used in 2d games.

dasowl · September 2012

@atilim Hello

It's very important in 2d too, because all modern cool effects and post-processing are based on shaders (even particles can be made totally on shaders). And because of perfomance.

Almost all per-pixel and ray tracing effects like blur, geometry effects like ripples, lighting, dynamic shadows can be achieved with shaders, and they will be pretty fast coz running on GPU. Also direct access to opengl layer allow developers to tweak its game\app and adjust perfomance.

Here is libgdx example:

bump mapping, 2d lighting, soft shadows, ambient occlusion - all can be used in 2d games.

dasowl · September 2012

By the way. If anyone heard about game "Contre jour" (2011 game of the year)?
There are antialiased lines everywhere across the game, and they are well simulated through low level opengl functionality (even 1.1 as far as I know)

I read developer's blog and interviews with him (he is simple ukrainian guy who made great game), and he explained how he did it. Its not hard, everyone can make it, only you need - direct access to opengl layer (he made lines through bunch of OpenGL triangles with different alpha settings on vertices). And one-color (b\w) blur on background was also simulated with this technique.

So it's all not only about shaders and 2.0, but also about access to opengl layer (some kind of bridge maybe?)

atilim · September 2012

I see. It's hard to give direct access to the underlying OpenGL layer but we're planning to introduce Mesh structure to directly create/update OpenGL drawing primitives.

techdojo · September 2012

@dasowl @techdojo I agree. We're putting OpenGL ES 2.0/Shader support to the long term list.

@dasowl, can you tell me a bit more about why do you need OpenGL ES 2.0? Because although shader support is important for 3d, it's not very commonly used in 2d games.

I think it's becoming more and more prevalent, it's what's starting to "separate the wheat from the chaff" in the current crop of games (and we do want Gideros app's to be classed amongst the wheat dont we?), wouldn't it also give an improvement in rendering speed as well as graphical quality?

Just because you don't have to do a thing is no reason to NOT do it.

atilim · September 2012

@techdojo On the other hand, on my side, the important thing is to determine which feature should be implemented first.

techdojo · September 2012

100% agree - as mentioned elsewhere you have to prioritise, you can only work on one thing at a time and regardless of which path you take your bound to piss someone off,
it's a hard juggling act, one I don't envy you for.

john26 · September 2012

Wanted to add my $0.02 on the openGL/ARM v6 or v7 issue.

Firstly I recently converted my game from Corona to Gideros and the Gideros version runs much faster when I test on a real Android device (the same device). This is despite Corona dropping support for ARM v6 (and maybe OpenGL ES1.1 -- not sure) in the interest of greater speed. So despite Gideros supporting the older standards: ARM v6 and OpenGL ES 1.1, Gideros apps still run much faster than Corona apps.

So Gideros is better than Corona (IMO in EVERY possible way) but we already knew that! What I'm saying is supporting these old standards does not seem to degrade performance on newer devices. It does prevent new features like texture shaders, but that's a different point.

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